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| Posted by | Hiding Triggering Images for Players |
 ratthew {G2 Torn Solaris!} (#128553) Maneater View Forum Posts  Posted on 2020-03-04 20:56:58 |
WHEW. So. How about that news post? For those uninformed, Lioden has officially stated that they're going to start rolling out more self-censorship features. This means that we, as players, can expect in the sometime future for there to be a feature that hides NSFW or gore images, and then some. I don't know if this is due to our efforts on this topic or not, but either way, it's a HUGE win for everyone here. Thank you all so much for your support! As with every other edit, I'm leaving the rest of this post the same. But as of right now, I think we can officially consider this a success! <3 EDIT: I'm putting this at the beginning because it's important. The event is over but this is STILL a problem that persists in the game. I implore you to not ignore this for the next year until more people have to go through this again. Thank you. Edit over. Hi all! I realize this was posted about a year ago, and was met with a very split responses. So I'm here to also post! I please ask that you read the whole post before supporting or not supporting. So, as the title says, this suggestion is to hide gore or bloody images for players who are sensitive to that sort of thing! Everyone pretty much gets the gist of what this is, as I have seen old topics like it. But I figure some people might have questions, so I'm prepared to answer those! Let's start with a bit of FAQ. Q: This game is 16+, and should have gore/blood (and other adult themes) in it, as that's how lions work. A: Sure! This game is 16+, but that doesn't mean everyone 16 or over wants to see a fairly realistic drawing of an elephant with its face torn off. Not seeing blood/gore wouldn't ruin an integral part of this game, such as taking away breeding, another 16+ topic. As for the "that's how lions work" part, well, this game isn't *really* that realistic, now is it? We literally have an event based around the apocalypse. We have green and blue and pink lions. We meet a manticore and fight with heaven and hell. Q: Why not just disable the whole event? A: Why should someone have to cease from playing the game because of something that can easily be avoided? Events are such an important part of this game and community, and to force someone not to be a part of it because they're sensitive to seeing images that depict terrible things isn't a good way to handle this. If someone wants to still participate, they should be able to! Also, the March event in particular also helps to raise funds for anti-poaching organizations. To force players to hide the event could negatively impact funds raised. Q: Why can't you just use adblock and block the images that way? A: First off, that would require having to look at the images first in order to get the image url to block them. Secondly, that doesn't work on mobile, which a LOT of players use primarily! Having a toggle would be much better suited for mobile players. Q: Yeah, but I want to see gore. A: You can! The idea I have in mind is a toggle that appears on a users page in the same area you would change your password. There, you can use a toggle to disable gorey images. Maybe in the future, if enough support is gained, there can be support for the sexually explicit images of lions in the February event. Q: But there's so much other triggering stuff besides the event! How are you gonna hide that? A: Simply put, you don't need to. If you don't want to interact with bloody looking lions, you don't have to. However, in order to enjoy the game to its fullest, you DO have to play the events. There is literally never a point in time on this site that there isn't an event going on. Q: What would the images be instead? A: Depends on what's easiest to do! It could be a blurred image instead, or the image could simply not load in, or it could just be replaced by a generic "BLOCKED" sign or something of the sort. It could also be an option to hide ALL event images while still keeping the event text up. Honestly, anything to make people more comfortable would work! Q: Why should the devs waste time on this? A: Well, because the players are important! Without them, there would be no game, and no matter how small the minority who NEED this are, the people who want it are probably a larger group in total. I'm uncomfortable with seeing this stuff, sure, but I'm not having a panic attack upon seeing this and being forced out of playing the whole game for a month because I physically cannot stand seeing it, like others are. I see no reason why people should be excluded from the fun of this game because of things that are out of their control, and I'd hope that the devs can see that too. These are just some frequently asked questions I noticed on other similar boards I thought I'd take care of, but if anyone else has questions, please feel free to ask those! I'm very willing to talk to anyone who's interested in supporting, or anyone who is wary about supporting. :::EDIT::: Bezthiel made an absolutely excellent point, that I'm going to quote here: "If the ToS says: 6.1 You are bound by, and must comply with, our Code of Conduct. 6.2 You also agree that you will not in connection with the Game: breach any applicable law, regulation or code of conduct; publish or send any Content (including links or references to other content), or otherwise behave in a manner, which: is defamatory, threatening, harassing, invasive of privacy, offensive, vulgar, racist, hateful, discriminatory, obscene, pornographic, sexually suggestive, misleading, abusive or deceptive or which attacks sexual orientation, promotes self-harm or eating disorders, involves murder, rape, suicide, terrorism, excessive gore or hacking; Then these are things that I can reasonably assume are not mentioned in site context. Yet rape, suicide, and gore certainly are. We should either be warned or be able to opt out. And before anyone says "but the newspost!" The 'excuse us for being blunt' is not the same as 'you will be shown pictures of horribly tortured, maimed, animals'. A warning is blunt." A few suggestions have been made about the overall functioning of the system! In general, it seems a lot of people enjoy the idea of just disabling explore images in general. This is a simple solution and could work wonders for everyone. On the other side of the spectrum, we have suggestions where players could pick and choose which images to disable, whether that be by a category (NSFW images) or by looking at a list of image descriptions and disabling them that way. To reflect these options, I've changed the name of the topic from "Hiding Gore for Players" to "Hiding Triggering Images for Players" as we've come to the conclusion that it isn't just gore that's the problem. |
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Sharturnet46 (#200051)
Punk View Forum Posts Posted on 2020-05-06 08:19:35 |
Honestly, I don't think I can even start telling you that problem with everything being a "safe space" without getting at least a little bit political, and this being a very, very, VERY alt-left community, I don't think it would be welcome here. I'm sorry, I don't support this. It's unnecessary coding just to provide another safe space. We are all adults and we don't need this. Seeing the occasional image you don't like cannot physically hurt you.  0 players like this post! Like? |
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Astrid┋CLEAN 3.7K 3x Clouded (#124118) 
Angelic View Forum Posts Posted on 2020-05-06 08:21:47 |
i think if you aren't willing to explain your statement, then you should reconsider saying it to begin with i am not "alt-left" if you want to go by political terms, im more of a centrist, so feel free to try to explain to me. but don't blame insensitivity or over-sensitivity on political alignment, it's just a subject of what kind of person you are 0 players like this post! Like? |
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🐢Eggplant🐢 (#173154)
Bone Collector View Forum Posts Posted on 2020-05-06 08:26:11 |
@Sharturnet Saying "we are adults and we don't need this" is incredibly insulting to quite a large group of people on this site, *including* myself. It is not that we don't like the images that we see - it is the fact that some of the images can induce illness, headaches, and potentially PTSD flashbacks. They CAN hurt us, physically as well as mentally. For example, when I see some of the March images my stomach turns and I feel the need to vomit because I cannot physically stand to look at them. Blatantly stating that we can not be hurt by images is both ignorant and insulting. If coding for a safe space helps to protect players, then it certainly is not unnecessary. It is actually very helpful to many players. EDIT: phrasing and typos 0 players like this post! Like?Edited on 06/05/20 @ 08:31:13 by 🐢Eggplant🐢 (#173154) |
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Sharturnet46 (#200051)
Punk View Forum Posts Posted on 2020-05-06 08:35:52 |
I'm a hardcore supporter of all the amendments, and feel we are entitled to free speech and the free flow of ideas. I don't support making extra work for the coders over just feelings, though. I think that should cover it. I don't want to say anything political on this site because safe spaces are a very right vs left issue, but I will talk about the psychological aspect and how I handle things as a teacher. During my ongoing teaching profession, I was confronted with the problem of either delicately pushing an understudy to develop as an individual or permitting her to stay stuck in her protected little case. To be explicit, I'd had a task on the schedule from the beginning of the semester: an in-class banter in which every understudy would introduce a contention for their group's position, and it would consider their midterm grade. At any rate, an understudy messaged me two days before the discussion, saying she had extreme social nervousness and that the idea of introducing in class caused her to feel wiped out; without a doubt, she was concerned she would hurl in class. My response to her email was irresolute. What was the hazard? While my first intuition was to state, please, suck it up, it's acceptable practice, and it's for your evaluation, and so on., something asked me to look for counsel from the executive in control, as it was my first time educating in this unit. I clarified my position: Encouraging this understudy to endure her two minutes before her colleagues would work well for her over the long haul—she would understand that she didn't kick the bucket of a cardiovascular failure or hurl in the homeroom out of apprehension, and afterward, much the same as enchantment, it would be simpler whenever. She'd have developed as an individual. Tragically, the chairman didn't see it that way. He stressed that causing her to satisfy this task would cause her undue pressure and hardship and make her need to drop the class, and even, he stressed, drop out of school! Goodness. I struck a trade off: I gave the understudy an "out," saying that in the event that she totally couldn't force herself to do it, she should simply be "wiped out" that day, and her colleagues could induce about her nonattendance anything they desired. Causing me a deep sense of shock, I showed up the day of the discussion, ahead of schedule, with espresso close by, and there she was, sitting at the table, all set. Inquisitively, after that class, she became more friendly, electing to go up to the board when the class was conceptualizing, making wisecracks in class, and overflowing with certainty. In some cases when you figure you can't accomplish something, and somebody reveals to you can, that is everything necessary. It’s powerful. “Safe” spaces let us hide in our comfortable, little existence, which is dangerous because they prevent us from growing and changing when faced with adversity—creating new neural networks and adapting. 0 players like this post! Like? |
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Astrid┋CLEAN 3.7K 3x Clouded (#124118)
Angelic View Forum Posts Posted on 2020-05-06 08:46:12 |
believe me, as a psychology major, i'm plenty familiar with the benefits of behavioral therapy to overcome fears, but a lion site is not the place to start it and the admins of a lion site are not licensed to do it on a broader subject, perhaps you've been lucky to not encounter this situation, but what about this: the teacher says "tough it out, you're presenting anyway or everyone will think you blew off the meeting because you're irresponsible" as a result, the student comes to class, tries to present, pukes in front of her colleagues, and has her fears confirmed. now, she's left with an even deeper psychological problem than before and it's THAT much harder for her therapist (if she ever works up the courage to see one) to convince her that her fear is founded in irrationality there is a time and a place to start tackling fears— whether they are rational or irrational— an there is a specific kind of person to do it. whether you are or are not that kind of person, i don't know enough to judge. but i know with absolute certainty that a *lion simulation game* is not the place to force people to confront their phobias and PTSD. one of the most important things a therapist will make sure of is that BEFORE you branch out of your comfort zone, make SURE you have a safe space to return to that you can relax and feel at ease in. if this site is that safe space for some people, why would anyone want to keep it from them? 0 players like this post! Like? |
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🐢Eggplant🐢 (#173154)
Bone Collector View Forum Posts Posted on 2020-05-06 08:52:06 |
Social anxiety is a very serious condition and can induce panic attacks, vomiting, and the potential to pass out. I have it, and I have experienced all of these things. It's not easy to overcome, and I'm proud of your student for being able to push through and go on with the evaluation. This issue here, however, is that you were willing to force her to go through with it, and that is most definitely not okay. Again, I'm glad she was able to get through it, but when dealing with triggering images, that will almost never be the case. We can't choose not to throw up. We can't choose not to get a headache. We can't tell those flashbacks fo stop in their tracks and come back later. It may not be as awful for me as it is for some people, but a lot of players NEED a safe space to protect them from these things. Right now, their only option is to not participate in the event at all. It is unfair to those who enjoy the events to be punished as such for having these kinds of serious reactions to certain images. Look, I'm all for pushing past my comfort zone and getting dirty with things I haven't tried before, but you simply can not test conditions as serious as these. It's just dangerous, insensitive, and dare I say selfish to prevent these people from having the option to protect themselves accordingly. 0 players like this post! Like?Edited on 06/05/20 @ 08:52:46 by 🐢Eggplant🐢 (#173154) |
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Sharturnet46 (#200051)
Punk View Forum Posts Posted on 2020-05-06 08:52:35 |
Okay, this may sound harsh, but people need to learn to live in the real world. All this safe space stuff has become an attack on free speech and free flow of ideas. America, and adult gaming communities especially should be a place where all ideas are welcome, and that people need to be exposed to thoughts that challenge them and make them uncomfortable. I have never experienced a place, including this game, where all thoughts or statements were welcome, or considered acceptable. And as far as challenging people and making them uncomfortable, yes online is a good place for that, but the challenging is ALWAYS circumscribed in one way or another. This debate is not really about pure free speech. 0 players like this post! Like? |
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Astrid┋CLEAN 3.7K 3x Clouded (#124118)
Angelic View Forum Posts Posted on 2020-05-06 09:43:30 |
@shart im sorry but what you're saying is too confusing for me to understand. you say it's an attack on free speech but then you say it's not about free speech, i say online gaming is not the place for that, you respond as though i said it is... im just very confused by your response as a whole, it doesn't make much sense, but i'll attempt to respond from my perspective, you are refusing this suggestion on a basis of pride. you feel as though those who would want/need to use this are weaker than you and you enjoy feeling as though you have a stronger stomach than they do. if a 70-year old veteran of vietnam played this game and didn't like seeing blood spilled because it reminded him of the war, would you really tell him he needs to suck it up and leave? would you think he's being coddled by society because we give him an optional block so he doesn't need to confront his PTSD everyday? if a victim of sexual assault had a manic panic attack at any image regarding sexual action, would you really tell her, "well, this is to push you out of your comfort zone, look at it or leave"? perhaps these are dramatic examples, but here: a 16 year old kid who has a serious medical condition and has needed to endure numerous operations, and the sight of blood makes him feel anxious and uncomfortable. unfortunately, that example is not unusual at all. is an online lion game really the place to force these people to face their fears? I have an answer for you— no, it isn't. it simply is not. there is no psychologist or therapist out their worth their salt who would tell patients to remain on websites that make them uncomfortable because it will enhance someone's life experience and character. as far as i am aware, you, as a teacher, are not in a place of significant education to say with certainty that keeping these images on site with no toggle will do more good than harm. what bothers me most about your argument is the fact that you try to use an element of psychology to support your beliefs when psychology is, in fact, against you, or at the very least, the methods you are endorsing. you are using theorization and pseudoscience (with a dismally small sample size, might i add) and as a teacher, you should be against both when arguing over facts of an area of study regardless, it is not a lion simulation game's job to teach people how to live in the real world. frankly, and this is the nicest way i have of saying it, it's quite silly that you think it is. perhaps you simply haven't been on the game long enough, but it isn't exactly made to teach people lessons lol it's literally just here for fun. so why not keep it fun for as many people as possible? nevertheless, you seem cemented in your ideas and i think as far as where you land on the Dunning-Kruger effect, you're probably just cresting that first mound haha. nothing wrong with that, it happens to everyone when learning about a subject, but it does make me less willing to respond to you because at that stage, it's very hard to convince someone to see it another way, so i'll just back out of this with dignity, as i believe i've said all i can say without repeating myself, considering the argument has been done already too many times before 0 players like this post! Like? |
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Sharturnet46 (#200051)
Punk View Forum Posts Posted on 2020-05-06 10:00:59 |
My experience is that life provides ample opportunity for many of us to retreat to a safe space. “Your home is your castle,” is the hoariest cliché in the book. Private clubs are safe spaces, often zealously defended from intrusion, as Augusta National Golf Club kept their members safe from the presence of women all the way up until 2012. You are accusing me of thinking I'm better than others!?! Being married to a veteran, having a brother and father and grandfather that are all veterans, I can assure you that they don't get triggered by things like this. They are more likely to tell you to suck it up and that's putting is nicely in comparison to what my brother would say. Maybe if it was actual pictures of gore and stuff I would feel differently. I'm sorry, but I will never support asking to make more work for coders based on somebody's feelings. People are way too sensitive. Seeing an unrealistic drawing of fake blood will not hurt you. I teach both law and psychology and know what I'm talking about. You can claim pseudoscience all day long, but in reality, many things called "pseudoscience" have very real studies backing them up (I couldn't even name all those things here). I was raised in a home where I was free and even encouraged to test limits, ask questions, and speak my mind. The biggest problem your generation has (in my opinion) is that you are too easily offended. 0 players like this post! Like? |
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Dier ~ 10k 20bo x7 Ros [Side] (#80015)
Deathlord of the Jungle View Forum Posts Posted on 2020-05-06 10:35:58 |
I hate to say join this thread again after having every comment, constructive or not, torn to pieces last time... but I agree with Shartunet46. If people are that easily triggered by things—and if they are, I'm very sorry to hear that and I AM NOT criticising them for being "weak" etc—they shouldn't be putting themselves at risk by playing a game like this. There are many other games out there that don't have the gore that this game does... Completely different scenario, but I recently had a major gambling addiction. Every pound I earned (I'm British) went to the slots. So I eventually saw what I was doing to myself, realised I WAS UNABLE TO STOP. I researched stupid things, and even planned them out at times. I fortunately never got quite that far, but I nearly did. And so I took the responsible step to close my casino accounts and will, as such, be unable to gamble and play on slots, bingo, etc again for the rest of my life for fear of falling into the same habit. And I believe someone with PTSD (etc) should take the same step. for their own protection. 0 players like this post! Like?Edited on 06/05/20 @ 10:36:56 by Dier ~ 9k Frail ~ x6 Rosette (#80015) |
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ratthew {G2 Torn Solaris!} (#128553) Maneater View Forum Posts Posted on 2020-05-06 12:20:13 |
Sharturnet, I think you're very stuck in your own ways, and there isn't anything anyone here can say to make you change your mind. If you don't support, that's alright. All we're trying to ask is that you care about other people. If you aren't able to even consider that, I think we've reached a stalemate. Dier, you say people with PTSD should take the same steps to prevent themselves from being hurt... isn't that... what this whole thread is trying to do? We're trying to take steps to prevent people from being hurt by asking the mods and coders to prevent people from being hurt. Also, mentioned this before, but Lioden's terms state this: "You also agree that you will not in connection with the Game: breach any applicable law, regulation or code of conduct; publish or send any Content (including links or references to other content), or otherwise behave in a manner, which: is defamatory, threatening, harassing, invasive of privacy, offensive, vulgar, racist, hateful, discriminatory, obscene, pornographic, sexually suggestive, misleading, abusive or deceptive or which attacks sexual orientation, promotes self-harm or eating disorders, involves murder, rape, suicide, terrorism, excessive gore or hacking..." If we, as users, are required to not publish or send any content that involves *excessive gore* then why on earth is it present on the site, without giving users the ability to filter it out? 0 players like this post! Like? |
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Astrid┋CLEAN 3.7K 3x Clouded (#124118)
Angelic View Forum Posts Posted on 2020-05-06 12:24:55 |
@clay i know, the hypocrisy is ridiculous. like literally imagine someone in the role-play thread describing in enough detail to equal visual imagery the things we see in the february or march events. personally im not bothered by the gore, but animal sex/sexual innuendos portrayed in a fetishized way (and yes, it is fetishized in its portrayal, because there is nothing educational about that event)? hell yea that makes me uncomfortable!!!! if someone described the stuff we see in events literally anywhere on the chat, im fairly sure it would be disproved of. honestly, i wouldn't be against someone making a thread to see if it would be blocked. because i truly don't know how the mods could look at a thread that involves a detailed description of the position in which two lion characters have sex and be like "yep, that's okay" 0 players like this post! Like? |
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[L’s-cute-toes ] (#110248) Prince of the Savannah View Forum Posts Posted on 2020-05-06 12:27:29 |
People should be able to block absolutely any image that bothers them. I’ve always been sensitive, and man, watching documentaries at school could be a gamble, but I would never hesitate to look away from something that bothered me. People being able to block anything that could trouble them would do away with a lot of problems on the Internet today. If you start arguing with me I will not see it. Oh and I’m supporting. 0 players like this post! Like? |
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ratthew {G2 Torn Solaris!} (#128553) Maneater View Forum Posts Posted on 2020-05-06 12:43:20 |
Astrid, completely informally, I absolutely want to thank you for supporting this so hard. I can't be on Lioden 25/8 so when a notification for this thread pops up, I'm usually like "oh, I'm sure Astrid is handling any arguments" lmao. If I wasn't worried about getting banned I totally would do a thread like that. I wonder if artists would get in trouble for selling gore/guro commissions? I might ask around. 0 players like this post! Like? |
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Zambz (#2687)
Bone Collector View Forum Posts Posted on 2020-05-06 12:57:44 |
Far as I know, you can sell gore stuff but can't post it on threads? I may be remembering wrong but i'm pretty sure through messages is okay as I've ordered some pastel gore through messages here a long time ago xD\ basically I made a post looking for it, and art discussed and received through private messages 0 players like this post! Like?Edited on 06/05/20 @ 12:58:25 by Zambz (#2687) |
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