You just wrote a bunch of paragraphs explaining more, and I still don’t see what you’re getting at. It’s really not that difficult to just add a couple decors or explore encounters based around religions other than Christmas.

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If you read the paragraphs, difficulty was not mentioned. Nor was your original post indicating confusion about programing difficulty. Adding them would be as technically simple as adding any other decor or encounter. There were other reasons that they might not be added, or people would hesitate to support their addition, than the difficulty in implementing the technical aspect. Could you perhaps clarify which part is causing you the confusion, then?

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You’ve said that you‘re for the idea, but not in this form? And I don’t see what you’re going for there. “This form” is literally just asking for some recognition of other holidays. It’s, as I said, not that difficult, and certainly not deep enough to require ten paragraphs of basically the same thing you’ve been saying the entire time.

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I find it interesting timber, that you're criticizing serval's condescension while in the same post are claiming that you're simply playing devil's advocate to protect people from themselves.

There are a lot of decor items that can be used to create unsavory or offensive scenes. On a site that is 16+ to join, most users don't need you to point that out for them because they can't see it for themselves.

Additionally, to say that Christmas trees and santa hats are not tied in with any religious connotations to a Christian holiday shows the culturally biased lens you're viewing this from. Minorities are painfully aware that Christmas, no matter if its midnight mass or leaving cookies out for Santa, is favored commercially only because Christian influence happens to be the strongest in the cultures profiting from it.

You CAN choose not to interact with a random event by clicking the next option onward or ignoring the adventure options if the encounter offers any. If it's a matter of not wanting to see it at all, that sounds like a personal problem for users unable to stomach the thought of witnessing other holidays in action.

This isn't something we need a devil's advocate for, and trust me: it's absolutely the meat of what you're saying that people have a problem with and not the way you're saying it.

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Well said, Bel

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You say that Santa, Santa hats, etc. are not Christian. This is not true. St. Nicholas, a Christian bishop, is what Santa is based on. Also, you never explained to me how introducing decor/explore encounter(s) would cheapen Hanukkah. If you did, I read over it.

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id love to see a bit more diversity in the game for other religions in the holidays since so many happen around the same time of year. i feel bad for the poster having to wade through so much arguing over such a simple suggestion. I support

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@ Yeehaw - The form it is taking right now is to throw a highly religious item as a decor or encounter. I've made points of how that might not work out well. Solutions have not yet been made for many of those points. There has yet to be a symbol asked for that's not highly religiously associated for Hanukkah. Encounters make people who want to avoid them face them. Decor can be potentially used negatively, depending on what it is. So far the idea is just for users to block people using said decor in said manner. No mention yet of something less religiously charged that could be a nod to the holiday without being a highly religious symbol. Menorah has been highly advocated, and dreidel mentioned once? Are there any other items that might work as decor that could avoid the issues brought up? No advice on how an encounter might work that feels less forced to people who might want to avoid it. What could be a good nod to the holiday without being seen as actively promoting the religion? No advice on how to balance the list of holidays and religions that will want a nod once one gets added so that all feel equally represented without being overwhelming. There are already many encounters to where some aren't seen for days depending on how often one explores.

Basically, I want to see something more thought out than "We have Christmas, so we have to have Hanukkah somehow!" followed by "Oh, yes, add this one specific thing and only this thing! Absolutely nothing in the world could ever go wrong with that and anyone else who says it can is just a hateful person that despises diversity!" :/ But that's all that's really being said so far, and that's a bit disappointing. I'd like to see some more solutions.

@ Bel - My playing devi's advocate and serval's being condescending are not correlated in any manner. I'm not sure of the connection you're trying to make there. serval is perfectly capable of being condescending without my interference. And I am perfectly capable of bringing up points in contrast to popular opinion without other people or myself being condescending. Pointing out that there is a flaw in the argument is not the same as being condescending. The best you might make a case for is patronizing, but that is not my intention either.

I am interested in seeing the christian meaning behind a red hat with white fur trim or a pine tree with lights. Do you mind explaining the religious significance of it to me? I am aware that they are affiliated with Christmas due to commercialization and popular culture. I am not aware of any religious significance attached to them. Just because something is used at a holiday that originally had Christian meanings doesn't mean that everything that touches it automatically acquires a highly religious meaning. Some things actually lose meaning over time. And yes, Christianity was the dominant religion when Christmas was popularized and commercialized. That doesn't mean that everything in it is automatically and exclusively a Christian symbol or religiously significant to exclusively Christians.

To choose to click "next" on an explore encounter, it means that you have to be presented with it, see/read it to realize what it is, and then acknowledge it enough to seek to avoid it. How is that not being made to interact with it? It's like saying you're not forced to interact in any way with any Christmas encounters this event if you don't want to, but still want to participate in the event. You'll still be presented with them. The only way to actually avoid them is to not participate in the event at all. Hide activity, like people do in January, I've been told.

If it's the meat of what I'm saying, not how I'm saying it, that is what is people have a problem with, then they should be able to respond with calm and solid responses rather than devolving into personal insults and slights. Sadly, this does not appear to be the case. And it does very little to tell me that it is my position that is wrong, but rather that people can't respond to my position so lash out at my character or personality instead. It's a classic deflection technique to cause source bias in future readers.

@ seu - As I said to Bel, I am completely unaware of a religious significance behind a red hat with a white fur trim. Do you mind explaining it to me? I am aware that St. Nicholas was an early Christian saint. I am also aware of how little resemblance he has to the modern notion of Santa Claus. And I am aware that many people who celebrate without the religious aspect of Christmas are unaware that the inspiration behind Santa Claus was an early Christian Bishop who legend says resurrected dismembered children from a pickle barrel, secretly gave gold to young women so they could get married and wouldn't become prostitutes, and was, among other other things, the patron saint of prostitutes reformed thieves. And I don't see how there is any lingering religious significance to the commercialized concept of the clothes that Santa Claus wears. If you go back to the "Well, that's the origins, so it has to still be that religion" argument, then almost none of Christmas is Christian! Almost all of the modern Christmas practices, sans Nativity, Advent, and Epiphany, are based around Saturnalia and Mid-Winter celebrations, including gift giving, candle lighting, feasting, having time off from work, and the date of December 25th.

I believe that I made a reference to how mass distribution of an item with religious significance to the masses to be used in a non-religious manner that eventually leads to a lack of understanding of the actual purpose or significance was actually to Bel using Advent as an example. I was never directly addressing you in particular, though I know it had been brought up previously. I did not mean to overlook you specifically, I was just replying to the more recent and vocal people at the time.

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This...really isn’t that deep timber, and we could really do without the novels of repeated points.

Also-
“ Basically, I want to see something more thought out than "We have Christmas, so we have to have Hanukkah somehow!" followed by "Oh, yes, add this one specific thing and only this thing! Absolutely nothing in the world could ever go wrong with that and anyone else who says it can is just a hateful person that despises diversity!" :/ But that's all that's really being said so far, and that's a bit disappointing. I'd like to see some more solutions.”
I haven’t seen anyone say anything like this, I think you are just misinterpreting what some of us are saying. We know stuff could go wrong, but it’s not about that, and some solutions really are as simple as blocking someone or, quite frankly, getting over it if it’s so upsetting to see even a shred of something other than Christmas.

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Thank you, R.

Timber, my point was that it is in itself condescending to suggest you need to protect 16+ year old users and make them aware of how terrible a culturally diverse explore encounter or decor could be, and that I found it interesting that you'd have an issue with serval being condescending with you yourself are being patronizing.

Santa and Christmas trees are probably the symbols most associated with Christmas, a Christian holiday, and if you think that Jewish or Muslim children, or children from other non-Christian backgrounds, are typically allowed to celebrate them or enjoy them from a secular standpoint, then I'd suggest asking them, or doing some research on the topic. If you think that these "completely secular" components are not alienating to people who are not Christians, then quite frankly you're wrong.

It would take far more time and effort to explain the way Christianity is engrained in Western cultures like the US and UK than it's worth with someone who simply doesnt care to see it that way and implies every counter argument is illogical.

And again: if someone feels as though another culture is being forced upon them because they witness cartoon lions doing something associated with Judaism, or some other holiday separate from religion, that's their personal problem and at that point they need to opt out.

I feel as though you're intentionally conflating "religious significance " with "religious bias" because you want to play this off as people misinterpreting or misrepresenting what you're saying, but what it comes down to is that everyone understands your point. We just dont think it's a good one.

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Is it your goal to interpret everything we say incorrectly, and only in a way that benefits... whatever your argument is? The “solution” to all these problems you’re apparently seeing is so, so simple: you aren’t being forced to look at anything on this site, and if a small recognition of religious holidays other than Christmas, or religious symbols being used inappropriately in a LION GAME makes one squeamish, that sounds more like a personal problem than one that should be brought up as a potential hazard.

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I like how this entire thread has turned into one person arguing with everyone. The person who suggested this isnt some greedy business man looking to make a buck, its someone who celebrates something differemt to christmas. All they want is a little recognition. If everyone is for ya know, recognition its okay. Yes people may abuse it, but even then, if they are able to introduce the new decor in a respectable way, i dont see the problem

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This is a shitshow

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I love this thread, its 5 entire pages of people digging themselves holes by pulling every possible excuse to prevent the site from adding references to Judaism, where else can you find stuff like this but LD forums

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To be fair, I think it's mostly one person who really hates diversity and is trying to hide behind pseudo-intellectualism to mask their bigotry, and then silent non-supporters who I'd imagine are less willing to tattle on themselves.

The brightside is, it looks like the majority of people who commented are much more open to diversifying the allusions to other holidays.

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