No support. The number of references and head-nods to real world stuff in this event already makes me roll my eyes. I would much rather have the December event be far less about popular/societal references and more about some fictional winter celebration (or even a snow-based disaster) our lions get to explore, perhaps with some winterized-nods at African culture or lion-society. Stuffing more human-society icons into the lion game... eh. Pass.

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Jarat- you are about the first person to post a pretty logical no support and I applaud you, i do agree partically. If it gets too much of a problem, maybe redo it.

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The double standards in the responses, particularly to me, are quite overwhelming. If you want to add something controversial in the name of diversity, everyone else should get over it, but if people don't want it added when you support it, then they're hateful people? A santa hat is a religious symbol of Christianity, but adding a menorah decor wouldn't be including a religion but just another holiday? Seriously? If you want to say adding something that's controversial (Which religion of any sort always is) can be done simply, easily, and with no potential for negative outcomes, then you're looking at the world through rose colored glasses or have your head so far up your own ass that all you can see is your own shit. Four times the question "how could this be bad/a problem?" has been directly asked, and when given an answer, the reply isn't usually "Oh, well, XXX can compensate for/fix that," it's essentially been "You just hate diversity!!" So, yes, it has been what people are saying. Sorry, I've tried to stick to logic and facts, but the rampant character attacks (8 direct and 6 indirect that I saw) from people who seem to take people not agreeing with them as reason to lash out and judge others as hate-filled bigots against diversity in any form has finally been enough for me. So far the support is split at roughly 2:1 in favor of including, which means while a majority of the ones who have voted are in support, there is not an insignificant number who don't want it. And being spiteful or deciding to call them bigots or accuse them of begin against diversity just because they might not want things the same way you want them is very judgemental and frankly self-righteous and arrogant. If I stuck around to continue making points longer than others, maybe it's because other people couldn't take the bullying for as long. End of story - the most vocal supporters are now attacking character rather than content and I no longer support this suggestion just because I don't want to have anything to do with such a group of bullies. If your version of including diversity is to attack anyone who doesn't agree with you about it, then you'll actually do a bang up job of convincing people that diversity is bad. Which is a shame.

As for the thinking that people who don't celebrate Christmas religiously feel excluded or alienated by the secular symbols of Christmas, and I'm so wrong for thinking otherwise, well, I have been doing as suggested and talked to those people and done research. Most of the research seems split with people of non-Christian faiths saying that they felt alienated by Christmas and drawn to focus on their own religion (if they had one) in that time instead. Others said that they never felt excluded and most of the practices didn't have religious meaning so were just other times to be with and celebrate family and togetherness and bring happiness to children with giving gifts. Just like this thread, the position is split and you shouldn't ignore either side. Since this discussion started, I've talked to three Jews, one Hindu, four Atheists, one Pagan, two agnostics, six Christians, and one Christian who's denomination doesn't participate in holidays of any sort, and my answer has generally been that Christmas is celebrated by most of them, but that they don't see religious connections in most of it. One of my Jewish coworkers celebrates Christmas and her reasoning is because, and I quote, "It's not like it's a religious holiday. Just Santa and presents, and who could argue with that?" She was, however, quite irritated at the idea of people lighting a Menorah's candles for pixel prizes or pointless kicks rather than religious observation (I had her read the thread, so she wasn't just hearing my interpretation, and she still wasn't pleased). On this thread, there have been a few saying "I'm Jewish and I'd love this" and another saying "I'm Jewish and I'm not really for this idea." My actively Hindu boss says "Merry Christmas" more freely and easily than I do, and came to work with a reindeer antler headband on one day. He literally laughed at the concept that celebrating a secular version of Christmas was actively practicing a Christian holiday observation because anything associated with Christmas had to be associated with Christianity by default of being "Christmas". My co-worker who doesn't celebrate any holidays says that she loves seeing people out enjoying all the decorations and activities because she likes seeing people happy and having fun, and it doesn't bother her or make her feel left out, even when everyone else is getting gifts and she isn't. I will grant that I have not yet managed to contact a practicing Muslim for their view on the situation, but that's because I haven't been to the job with the Muslim co-worker for a few days, and my other Muslim friend is away visiting family over the holiday. I'll catch up with her when she gets back and him when I'm there next, but mostly for my own curiosity because I'm done with this thread and the bullying people in it.

Genericization is a real thing. It's happened to Christmas. If other religious holidays spread similarly to those who don't practice the faith, it'll happen to them eventually too.

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Okay, I’m gonna say it again: no one here thinks there’s no potential for negative outcomes, the negative outcomes are just very easily solved.

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Yes, timber, I do think this position is incredibly bigoted, and think your position that symbols directly associated with a Christian holiday are secular enough to not be considered religious at all is shaped from cultural bias. I don't have a double standard. I'm saying that it doesnt matter, and my point was that:

To say plenty of people celebrate Christmas as a secular holiday and therefore it's a-okay to reference it just because it's been more commercialized than other holidays can easily be countered with: plenty of people who celebrate Hannukah also celebrate it secularly.

My point is that it does not matter. My point is that giving a nod to a holiday by making it an option for other people to use or reference is not controversial simply for acknowledging that it exists. I don't care that holidays have religious association, which Christmas inherently does whether you want to acknowledge it or not, if one can be included, the others can be, too.

"Quite irritated at the idea of people lighting menorah candles for pixel prizes?" No one suggested that. No one at all.

Someone suggested a decor. Someone suggested a dreidal. Latkes were mentioned. To acknowledge that the menorah exists and let Jewish users have access to it is not and should not be controversial.

To then say that other users might abuse it, and what's the solution to that: people have answered you. You just don't like the answers. On a site where people are close to or already in adulthood, it is not up to you to protect the userbase from the hypothetical of someone doing unsavory things with a decor. This can already be done with Christmas trees and other decor, too, why are you not passionately writing to have them removed or to prevent them from being added further into the game?

If your research is 50/50, why do you feel as though the people who don't feel alienated by Christmas have the same amount of importance in this discussion as the people who DO feel alienated?

So far, the only reasonable argument to not include it has been that the winter celebration on Lioden should not include real life references to begin with. At that point, the Christmas references should be removed, too. Otherwise? Yeah, I'm going to think you're bigoted, and I have a hard time believing that anyone who will passionately argue that Christmas is "secular enough" (it's not) and Hannukah or other holidays should be excluded because they aren't secular enough, doesn't have bigoted views.

That's not bullying, I'm just unwilling to sugarcoat that position for someone, again, passionately advocating for the exclusion of Hannukah.

You think I'm a bully, I think you're a bigot, and at this point, I've said my piece. If you wish to continue repeating the same points over and over again and rephrase them each time you get a rebuttal, all the more power to you.

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I think we need to be clear about what exactly people want to be implemented- we arent asking for a star of David or other highly religious symbols. We just want some acknowledgement of holidays outside of christianity. An explore encounter with lions lighting a menorah, maybe. it would still give STB as much as the other encounters. or latkes, or a dreidel. it doesnt have to be some sort of huge show about judaism.

yall need to really re-think why you're not supporting this.

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Please leave politics and religions out of a lion-sim web game.

Including any type of religion opens the door to including other religions, the question is where do we draw the line between representation and a game being overrun by religious symbols without being labeled as religion-phobic?
Christmas is an exception because even if for some it's a religious symbol for many it is not, due to its mainstream appearance in pop culture and heavy marketing.

"yall need to really re-think why you're not supporting this."

Please do not imply that someone is anti-Semitic for not supporting this thread.
I'm Jewish, lived over 20 years in Israel, went to a religious Jewish private school from 1st -12th grade, lost 1/3 of my dad's family in Babi Yar during WWII because they are Jews.

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With your own logic, as Christmas is an exception because it is a religious symbol to some but not to others... a menorah decor would be fine as well, since it's a religious symbol to some but just a simple decor to others.

Edit: Well you edited out that specific sentence, but still. It's not that serious. This is a lion sim. Nothing is wrong with a menorah decor. Politics are not being shoved down anyone's throat with an encounter of some lions celebrating Hanukkah. We already have angel/demon and pagan decors too. You don't need to cite WWII either.

It's not serious. It's really not a big deal. At all.

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Have you ever thought that representing religion in a lion sim game may be seen to some as a mockery of said religion and a mainstream wash?

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No, I haven't, because that's genuinely ridiculous.

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Sorry to chime in but, saying that would it make a mockery of said religion is somewhat glazing over the fact that we have multiple religious symbols and such on here already. And I have never seen anyone verbally say that said religions are being made a mockery out of.

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I'd like to add about the point that religious symbology should not be in the game at all:

Azazel the goat is just one decor right off the top of my head that either needs to be removed for that reason, or has already created a precedent that it's okay.

But like Mochi said, that's not what's being requested here. A holiday decor is.

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@red no? because having a menorah decor isnt mocking anything? I-

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My people died for their religion, humiliated, genocided for it, I may be an atheist but I fully know how important it is for some people in my life, to whom hold it sacred and I highly doubt it's appropriate to be featured on LD.

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