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| Posted by | Wider User Conduct Enforcement |
 [△] Nadir (#108458) Prophet View Forum Posts  Posted on 2023-05-25 18:23:03 |
[ Support My Other Suggestions? ] Revisiting Grandpaws Fixing 99999 SB Branch Listing Spam Making Sub Males More Useful ------- ✪ Summary: This suggestion is going to be kept relatively simple. There are some exploitable loopholes in the writing and enforcement of ToS and CoC which I am seeking to get patched. Myself and a number of other veterans have had conversations about these topics on and off for months, but it's been an issue for a very long time. Additionally, since the only argument against enforcing display names to be void of stud advertisements that I have seen is that it "helps locate studs", I have created this suggestion for users to provide customizable, searchable keywords for their studs and lions in their bios. Link to "Searchable Stud & Lion Keywords in Bio" Suggestion ✪ What I Am Proposing I am proposing the following changes: • Point 1: Re-Define & Enforce Begging Rules Veiled Begging Still Constitutes Begging Veiled begging or indirect begging is defined as follows: Open mentions which specifically state user goals and an exact amount that is needed, lamenting not having a specific item or lion, stating exact amounts needed to retrieve lost lions, etc. Just because a user doesn't specifically use a variation of the phrase "Can I have x thing?" does not mean they are not begging. Lioden users have learned they can use the variations of the following phrases to exploit a loophole in the rules and still receive the items they want: "All of my lions just ran and now I need to somehow make 3200 SB." "I just realized I don't have an IBF feather for my Dwarf's heat!! I need to find 2 GB quickly!" "All of my lions are going to run tomorrow and I don't have any food!" "I'm 5 GB away from being able to retire my king early!" All of the above phrases are veiled begging frequently employed by users to ask for free assets without directly asking. Many veterans on this site know what users are doing, and many of us are getting frustrated that mods knowingly turn a blind eye to what the rest of us know is purposeful veiled begging. SOLUTION: Update policy on begging to prohibit behaviour which may be used to directly or indirectly ask for game resources. • Point 2: Re-Define & Enforce Display Name Conduct Stud Advertisements. Users are repeatedly warned for advertising studs in general, alluding to studs, linking to studs, and so forth. I think it's time we recognize that display names count toward that. There is an obvious intent when a user sets their display as: Jane Doe: G1|x6Ros|Ferus Every time the user talks in main chat, they are advertising their lion up for stud. See: Link to "Searchable Stud & Lion Keywords in Bio" Suggestion Asset Begging Some users have GB goals in their display names, for example: John Doe[1/15 GB Goal!] Goals should be on user dens, not in display names. Event Begging And December especially sees a rise in this: Doe Doe: GIFT ME!! Preferences should be on user dens, not in display names. This constitutes begging, even if it utilizes an indirect method of doing so. SOLUTION: Update policy on advertisements to prohibit advertisements of any kind in display names. |
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Mad Hyena (#29080)
Special Snowflake View Forum Posts Posted on 2023-06-01 13:47:11 |
Improving adverisments should not come at the expense of other users' comfortable use of the game, is what Im saying. Just enforcing the rules to remove a feature currently used for a lot of convenience, offering only barely-helping keywords, is not something I would support, as it would directly make game less comfortable for me. Synonyms argument in my first comment is valid; I dont want to be typing 10+ ways of spelling something to only possibly search for part of users with G1. That will be a lot of work, for something that currently takes a momentarily glance to do. Loophole or not - its convenient the way it is now, and will be less convenient and more time consuming if these rules were to be more enforced. That's why I dont support and offer an alternative suggestion.  2 players like this post! Like?Edited on 01/06/23 @ 13:49:36 by Mad Hyena (#29080) |
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[♰] Yharnam (#112370)
Holy View Forum Posts Posted on 2023-06-01 13:55:21 |
Mad Hyena (#29080) :: The keywords would perform the exact same function as the username tags, except now allow users to utilize more of them. :) Synonyms is where flexible search results come in. Many modern search functions also include 'similar spellings' as part of modern day search engine code. Via Algolia: "What is typo tolerance? Typo tolerance allows users to make mistakes while typing and still find the records they're looking for. This is done by matching words that are close in spelling." You'd get a few false positives, but it's very useful for dyslexic users, users who may not write or spell very well, users who have regional variations (see: color vs. colour) and so forth. 2 players like this post! Like? |
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Mad Hyena (#29080)
Special Snowflake View Forum Posts Posted on 2023-06-01 14:23:31 |
Will they show up next to a username then? Be immediately visible when searching studs? Because if not, then they will not function the same. They will be a separate function, that will be a hassle to have to fill out. Right now you can see the usernames without the need to search anything. Keywords CAN be added as a side feature - as you mention, for clans and other searches, they're a good suggestion on their own. But not as a replacement for username info, they are not convenient enough to replace them. For username info issue, something else needs to be done, something other than entirely removing immediately visible quick info. My suggestion on last page I believe can work in pair with the suggestion in this topic.  Simply have it in a seperate field from name and toggleable, who wants - sees it, who doesnt - disables and does not see it. THEN, I can support this suggestion - so that Moderators can take action and move all non-name info from Name fields to Comment fields, this is where rule corrections will truly come in handy. That way, a wider group of users will be happy. Those who want quick info will get to keep it. Those who dont want quick info, can disable it from Den options. But just enforcing removal of info from usernames without offering a fitting substitute matching in convenience to how it is now - no, not supporting, sorry. And keywords arent quick enough to allow same level of convenience, even with typo tolerance they will still need to be typed in search to be visible; usernames, you dont have to type anything, just scroll and read and you see all the names. It only seems its "just a few extra seconds" to type something. But it is only if you do one search. If you have 6+ lionesses in heat, needing to seach different studs for each, even those 5-10 extra seconds wasted typing keywords are a big deal. They cumulate into minutes, which also stack the more you search. For people with little time to spend online, few more minutes means missed things to do. I do not want to be spending extra minutes because the search became far slower thanks to the need to type in searching keywords. Yes, it is a big deal to me. 1 player likes this post! Like?Edited on 01/06/23 @ 14:44:40 by Mad Hyena (#29080) |
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[△] Nadir (#108458)
Prophet View Forum Posts Posted on 2023-06-01 15:32:15 |
Mad Hyena (#29080) :: It is the exact same number of characters that you type onto your keyboard, but input into a field in the bio. It is fundamentally no different than using any other search filter. It requires data to be input and enter to be hit (or search button pressed). I understand the hassle argument you are attempting to make, but I am struggling to find the merit in it. I personally do not mind extra key strokes as someone with a neurological disorder that affects my motor skills and physical impairment of the wrists and forearms. So it certainly wouldn't make my LD life more difficult than any number of Lioden's existing lack of disability friendly features does daily. If anything, it may help me better find what I need, without having to navigate hundreds of individual lions. I, for the record, have little time to actively use this site, such that I consistantly manage to waste more roasted lambs than I use. And I am struggling to not see this argument as anything but 'I view 2 extra keystrokes to type G1 as excessive work' which reads as laziness, when filtering through individual pages takes far more time. If truly you want them to appear next to lion names in search, we could easily include an option such as the following at the very top of results:  1 player likes this post! Like?Edited on 01/06/23 @ 15:36:47 by [△] Nadir (#108458) |
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Mad Hyena (#29080)
Special Snowflake View Forum Posts Posted on 2023-06-02 01:32:07 |
And I on my side do not mind extra information included in the usernames, and they do not make my reading of the site any harder. What you are trying to "counter argument" is listing your own reason for wanting that change; I list you mine, and it is no less valid than yours, but you keep trying to argue that its no problem. Just because you, personally, dont feel its extra work and a hassle to search, doesnt mean other people dont. And calling someone lazy because of their opinion surely gives your suggestion no credit. If my opinion sounds like laziness to type, then your suggestion sounds like laziness to read. It goes both ways. You still fail to see my point. Currently, you dont have to input any extra information in search. You can just search for, say, Temporal base - and a list of usernames will ALREADY have the info in the usernames. It will already list G1 whenever people put them, making it easier to see which studs are G1. I dont search for G1 in usernames now. I dont need to bother doing that. I can just search for base and usernames will Already show the info I need. I find that comfortable. I find that convenient. And I am not lazy for wanting to keep the feature stay convenient for me. You want this suggestion to make Lioden more comfortable for you to read, I dont want it because it will make it less comfortable for me to search. A better middle ground than imperfect keywords needs to be found. The way you put it will make it far longer and harder to read than info in usernames currently is, stretching the page two times longer! It will make it even harder to navigate and read to just put all that wall of text there. You keep ignoring my suggestion on the previous page, Id like to hear why you dont think it'd be a better alternative? Name Comments would be togglable and you'd be able to hide them when not wanting them. How is it worse than stripping all of the usernames of useful information, alltogether, and instead try adding new unrelated features that dont do half of the job? Do you have any counter-arguments for my suggestion to split usernames into two parts, one actual name, the other toggleable comment? 3 players like this post! Like?Edited on 02/06/23 @ 01:47:41 by Mad Hyena (#29080) |
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[♰] Yharnam (#112370)
Holy View Forum Posts Posted on 2023-06-02 01:46:52 |
Other options: Keywords which display on hover-over Keywords which display when a user clicks a "Show Info" box I'm reading what you're writing. I am. But I'm confused about this the idea that keyword search indexing is imperfect. ??? Literally what? This is a very basic function of almost every single site that has an internal search engine. It just expands upon the system already implace to permit flexible user entries. Why does Lioden need to stay archaic and rely on having it in display names? But let's assume I want to use this display name system. It's not accessible to everyone. I can't even PUT relevant info in my username on either account because "G1 Gothic Colourbomb" and "G1 Gothic Patches" - the entire theme of my studs - with my actual name is too many characters. It's severely limiting even if I wanted to use the system other users are using. I'd also like to point out whatever this is: ``Will they show up next to a username then? Be immediately visible when searching studs? Because if not, then they will not function the same.`` The example I crafted for you did exactly what you wanted it to, and you didn't like it. 0 players like this post! Like?Edited on 02/06/23 @ 01:50:50 by [♰] Yharnam (#112370) |
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Mad Hyena (#29080)
Special Snowflake View Forum Posts Posted on 2023-06-02 01:50:47 |
I am not saying keywords should be scrapped, they are a good enough suggestion for putting that info in. But as a SIDE feature, not as a replacement. Keywords can be a separate search, adding to the existing search functionality. Names and Name Comments can be used for keeping things the way they are now, plus adding the option to toggle them. I still havent heard a single word why a Name Comments is a bad idea. I suggest it INSTEAD of your suggestion here, not as a standalone suggestion. I purpose it as a better solution to the issue that you're having. But you keep ignoring that. 0 players like this post! Like? |
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[♰] Yharnam (#112370)
Holy View Forum Posts Posted on 2023-06-02 01:52:04 |
I'd prefer if you elaborated on what a name comment is if you'd like me to have any real input on it. Even a basic mockup example would be useful. EDIT: You also had nothing to say about how having it in display names isn't accessable to everyone, and I'd appreciate a response about that.  0 players like this post! Like?Edited on 02/06/23 @ 01:56:01 by [♰] Yharnam (#112370) |
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Mad Hyena (#29080)
Special Snowflake View Forum Posts Posted on 2023-06-02 01:58:30 |
I have explained it in my comment on the previus page.  2 Fields in Den Options, instead of 1 username. NAME: the actual name, it cannot have any extra info, that I will support rules to be clarified and enforced for. COMMENT: In black on picture. A short note showing up next to the username. Same way it is now. But toggleable, View/Not View. Here all the texts like G1, Hard Mode, Poop Me, OM me melon, Currently Busy, will go. Edit: Yes, having into in usernames is also imperfect. That's why I dont have Hard Mode in my name, despite wanting to show off Im in that clan. But keywords wont help me with that, either. But my suggestion above, would. 1 player likes this post! Like?Edited on 02/06/23 @ 02:02:34 by Mad Hyena (#29080) |
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[♰] Yharnam (#112370)
Holy View Forum Posts Posted on 2023-06-02 02:01:05 |
Thank you for the mockup. I had an idea that may have been what you meant, but I was not certain. Thank you also for the response. However, is this different than advertising in forums not designed for advertising? It feels like we've looped back around to a different way to skirt a similar rule. Would these fields appear in search? 0 players like this post! Like?Edited on 02/06/23 @ 02:02:17 by [♰] Yharnam (#112370) |
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Mad Hyena (#29080)
Special Snowflake View Forum Posts Posted on 2023-06-02 02:04:46 |
They would appear in search, user list and forums but not in Chat. And strictly speaking, it is NOT really advertising. It doesnt say Stud Me, I Need Money, Lions For Sale, Give Me Free Things (Gift Me in December is different, because its an intended event feature, you arent begging but listing your feature preference here). If there's a "veiled begging" is up to the user themselves to decide. Maybe the user wants to list them just because they're proud of their king. If you percieve it as advertising or begging, you may disable them from view and dont see them. If you dont percieve them as such, like I do, you can keep them and not hide them. For me, they're a convient bit of quickly visible info, not begging, and Id like to keep them for faster usage of Lioden. Just like Hiding trades in search. Admins gave us an option to hide those trades we deem "veiled begging", because its a very vague term and not all users agreed if paperclip trades were begging or not. I think a toggleable option for usernames is better than site-wide ban. 1 player likes this post! Like?Edited on 02/06/23 @ 02:14:54 by Mad Hyena (#29080) |
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Ricky [Git gud lol] (#177615)
Notable Lion View Forum Posts Posted on 2023-06-02 02:07:25 |
Support as usual! I know i've personally put my kings gen and his special traits in my name [back when i was a newbie with my first actual, nice-looking king and I thought it was something that make you seem special because everyone did it]. Any form of alluding to your king in your users is advertising, even if it's like 'oh hey, look at my bio' it's deliberately getting you to go look at their king, but outright advertising of your assets belongs in the sales chat, not anywhere else. There are also a lot of ways to scam people, such as stealing from clans once made an admin; mods have said directly that they do not mod clans, but there is no way other than for the admins to, to get these items back; but they downright refuse to. there are many, MANY, dire flaws in the entire system of lioden, even if at first it looks pretty great; there will always be loop holes, sure, but making it harder to do discourages the mass in my experience. 2 players like this post! Like? |
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[♰] Yharnam (#112370)
Holy View Forum Posts Posted on 2023-06-02 02:26:21 |
Mad Hyena (#29080) :: So what you're saying is... they're keywords, but with a much shorter character limit, which can be visibility toggled on and off? ... Like the mockup I made except completely unsearchable? Also, Stud Ads & Veiled Begging are separate in the list in the OP. I am not implying a stud ad in display name is begging. It is advertising. Rufus (#177615) :: That's my view. People wouldn't do it if it didn't get them more studs. 0 players like this post! Like?Edited on 02/06/23 @ 02:28:49 by [♰] Yharnam (#112370) |
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Mad Hyena (#29080)
Special Snowflake View Forum Posts Posted on 2023-06-02 02:32:19 |
Yes, that's what I mean. Leave searchable for keywords - they're good as an additional feature. I still do not believe listing G1 in a username would be considered "veiled advertisment". There's no way to search for generations so listing it somewhere is the only way to have that information up. 2 players like this post! Like? |
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ᛋᛁᚠ🇵🇸[G2 Lilac RLC] (#358076) Magnificent View Forum Posts Posted on 2023-06-02 02:43:34 |
I agree with all of this except for the stud in username rule, but I see your points and have supported. My main issue has been with people in giveaway chat posting "convince me to give me any of my lions" which we know is not a giveaway. It seems that maybe mods have started cracking down on that because I've seen a couple of instances in chat that someone is redirected to post in chatter. But the veiled begging in main chat, especially in the morning in the run to rollover (I'm in Europe so it's 10AM for me) is pretty obnoxious and some users will just sit and spam chat about how they need 1GB. Personally I have no idea how it's supposed to work, it makes me never want to interact with that person but maybe some people fall for it. 1 player likes this post! Like? |
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